I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view…

rather than simply observing there’s a problem or carp about “society” having to do something, i’d propose more specific ways to address the situation.

given the choice of solutions proposed “gold star day” for women (yours), or the option to create more programs for science, math, & athletics for females at the primary & secondary school level (mine)… somehowe i think mine might be a little more effective.

Title IX is a much more constructive longitudinal approach to addressing these issues than waiting for “society” or someone else to solve the problem. cheers to Patsy Mink.

There is no pop solution that is going to make something that’s a product of generations ‘go away’. But the concept of role models assumes the problem resides with the women, and we need to point out, again and again, that the problem resides with society.

Patrick, please do not use the term cat fighting. I can’t account for your job, but I’ve been on many with women and have gotten along well with the women as with the men. I would say there’s a chance your department’s culture could have encouraged this behavior.

As for what Angie is saying, there have been several organizations associated with women in tech (and in the sciences and so on) where women work to help and encourage other women. Unfortunately, we’re not seeing success because again, the assumption is that women have to make change (ie help each other), when the problem resides with society.

Th

http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2006/Sep/hour1_092206.html

Shelley: how do you propose to make this happen?

people shouldn’t be poor or ugly either, but nothing changes until you either 1) give money, or 2) do something.

what’s your solution?

I don’t know if it’s just my own personal experience or if this is something pretty common, but I have a number of female friends that pretty much ONLY have guy friends. And I’ve found if you put these girls with other girls, the latter will tend to (strongly) dislike the former. While on the guy side, I rarely if ever see guys that ONLY have girl friends. Usually the exact opposite is true, where they might just have lots of other guy friends.

So based on my experiences, I would tend to agree with Angie’s point about the lack (and difficulty in forming an) “old girls’ networks”.

Of course, the way the business press treats older women (and more recently older men), I’d be astonished if anyone knew there were women in technology before 1990 and that some of us are still going strong.

The drop out rate in the tech area for very well qualified women line managers is very significant as this article notes. Now I’m seeing the same for very well qualified men as well. We’ve got a real problem in our industry.

Of course, as Patrick notes, he can get his young male gang together to agree that being male is defacto “more qualified”, with the implication that a young woman should like it or lump it. After all, where’s her gang to fight back?

It’s hard to fight prejudice, no matter how many patents, companies, or credentials you may get if you are perceived as inferior for what you are – not what you do.

Lynne Jolitz
Chief Technology Officer
ExecProducer / CoolClip Network

You can pry my job, my money, and jobs and money of my more qualified male friends from my cold, dead and young hands…

Even with women entering science and engineering, our contributions are not treated equally. Role models have nothing to do with this — that’s putting the burden on women to make change.

What needs to change is women’s contributions need to be treated fairly and equally. Then more women will be interested in the fields, and hence become role models.

All the role models in the world won’t effect change.

We have to first separate out the behavior associated assumptions as regards men and women, including eliminating ‘cat fight’ from our vocabulary (unless you literally mean, cats fighting).

As for helping one another, I don’t necessarily see this when men greet each other. About the only time I see this is when men are currying favor from each other. I suppose we should learn to emulate this behavior, but it seems tacky to me.

As for genuinely helping each other, I agree. I think we need to stop thinking of ourselves and do things that help others, even without benefit for ourselves.

Women used to do this, but I don’t see it as often now, and I rarely see it in the tech profession now. That’s disappointing.