Thanks for the reply.

You are still missing the point: there is a difference between serving ads and selling user data. Contractually, this is a third party rights issue. Networks like DoubleClick (I have no relation to them as you insinuate) do not sell their data to anyone. There are no third party rights issues involved. Lookery does sell it's data. There is a big difference here, and folks that sell data may very well get restricted by Congress even though folks like DoubleClick will not.

Look, this is what your website says: “Lookery is aggregating user-reported data from, and with the permission of, social networks, dating sites, ISPs, and e-commerce sites. We are offering the aggregated targeting data back out via our ad network customers, statistics widgets, as well as unbundled targeting, APIs.”

There is nothing that says “with the permission of users.” You are taking data from one source, selling it, and using it for another purpose. This is deceptive, I hope you get shut down.

I agree that [paraphrasing you] “the value we bring ot users needs to be self-evident” and that it is not yet. We've got a great tech team, but software takes a while to write and deploy. We'll be satisfied on our basic transparency in another 4 to 6 months, at which point we'll be as good as it gets within the ad and targeting world (though i'd guess you care little about that relative measure).

I think the details of user data collection and targeting are important, but I can happily accommodate you and speak in generalities. At the broad strokes level you wish to discuss the topic, DoubleClick does the exact same thing as the rest of us. There's no rationale to exclude them unless you have some agenda beyond privacy concerns that you are not disclosing. A very, very small percentage of users (effectively zero) know that viewing an ad includes the implicit, opt-out arrangement with regard Doubleclick's user data and clickstream collection.

Like Doubleclick, Lookery is also an ad network. We run a billion ads a week on MySpace apps, Facebook apps, and similar. We've been doing that for a year and the data services for a few months. We uncovered a desire from a variety of sites large and small to learn about their audiences, anonymously and in aggregate, without being forced to run advertisements. We're satisfying that desire.

If you ever want to chat details, any action by Congress would impact us AFTER all the other companies mentioned in this thread. We're the least invasive of the bunch. If Congress shuts down all user targeting by networks, we will of course be affected.

Scott

P.S. I'm happy to exclude the ISPs from the conversation. It appeared you weren't aware of such practices.
P.P.S. If you want to know which web sites you visit are running third-party measurement systems that are not attached to ads, I'd encourage you to install this Greasemonkey script that our CTO built: http://davidcancel.com/2008/07/01/my-web-beacon... Web site owners choose to run these things in order to improve their sites, nobody forces them.

It basically confirms what I thought – Lookery is designed so that no users know what you are doing and won't unless either Congress or EFF make a stink.

Clearly, Lookery is not going to do a marketing campaign to say it's collecting user data and selling it without their implicit consent or knowledge.

That you have to resort to arguing by corollary that because ISP's engage is a similar practice, it's AOK for Lookery to do it as well, speaks for itself.

If you were really bringing value to users, it would be self evident.

What you are really doing is stripping users of their value and fooling yourself, and your employees, into thinking you are really creating a better world.

The reason Congress is getting involved is that user data is now being used to target advertising without their knowledge, though ways that are not evident.

It's one thing for DoubleClick to say every time we put an ad up, we know more about you, it's another for a company to gather that data disingenuously without any way for a user to know.

Further, DoublClick uses it within their system, Lookery is creating a marketplace for it.

That you think the it is OK to employ people to do this comes down to how you want to make money, what kind of world you want to see created, and what you are OK to tell your kids about how their father made his money.

That you have built a Giant Cookie Systems before now seems to have given you the opportunity to exploit users further by selling their data so people can put “better” ads in front of them.

I'm glad you realize that you have sold your soul to the advertisers and are able to rationalize it to yourself.

But please don't sell everyone else's , esp without their knowledge!!!!

Like you, the EFF makes the blanket request for opt-in systems, and then ones that store no PII. I believe that commercially viable systems can be created that meet either request, but not both.

We're working hard to both 1) exist, keep creating jobs/salaries/etc., and 2) add the easiest, clearest opt-out system anyone's ever seen. I'm not thrilled that we haven't had time to finish it yet, but we're doing the best we can.

Do you know that each ISP in the US sells your data an average of 10x a year? And they have all of it. Nebu's pitch was “Quit selling user data to ad networks, Quantcast, and Comscore. Go to marketers directly and make much more money.”

Do you really think your records, I mean the records of millions of users who have no idea you are collecting info on them and selling it, won't be subject to subpoenaed under the Patriot Act?

Can you really say that a cookie Lookery places on my machine can not be matched to a cookie in the Lookery system? That is how easy it is to connect your data to humans.

Have you run your system past folks like the EFF and gotten their AOK?

Do you allow users to opt in? or just assume everyone is AOK with Lookery pimp'ing their data?

Do they even know the you are placing a cookie on their machine and selling that data?

We don't watch you at all. We try to get age, gender, location, and some of your search into — with zero ability to connect it to you as a human — and help sites and marketers generally steer the web your way. It's a less invasive level of information than behavioral networks use today (and priced accordingly lower), but it's a level proven effective by marketers over 50 years.

I hope what happened to Nebu Ads happens to Lookery.