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	<title>Comments on: How Verizon and AT&amp;T may use &#8220;wireless neutrality&#8221; to drive Sprint and T-Mobile into the ground</title>
	<atom:link href="http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/</link>
	<description>News About Tech, Money and Innovation</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:19:57 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Gadgetsage</title>
		<link>http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-895893</link>
		<dc:creator>Gadgetsage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://venturebeat.com/?p=108437#comment-895893</guid>
		<description>This is just more BS PROPAGANDA. This like saying we can only lay so much pipe, and then we&#039;ll all have to ration ourselves to one poop a day, and pay extra if we have to go twice.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;the cost of transmitting this data is vanishingly small, that the system will grow along with the customer demands, and we&#039;ll only need to pay more if we buy into the bullcrap the telcos try to sell us, namely that we need to pay for each and every electron used to send data to and fro.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;ELECTRONS are CHEAP!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is just more BS PROPAGANDA. This like saying we can only lay so much pipe, and then we&#39;ll all have to ration ourselves to one poop a day, and pay extra if we have to go twice.</p>
<p>the cost of transmitting this data is vanishingly small, that the system will grow along with the customer demands, and we&#39;ll only need to pay more if we buy into the bullcrap the telcos try to sell us, namely that we need to pay for each and every electron used to send data to and fro.</p>
<p>ELECTRONS are CHEAP!</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-862100</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://venturebeat.com/?p=108437#comment-862100</guid>
		<description>&quot;At this rate, a carrier would be killed when a typical user streams a mere two videos a day.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I call BS.  If this were the case, then why on Earth would AT&amp;T allow the iPhone YouTube app to be included as one of the pre-installed apps?  One of the first things I did with my new iPhone is watch a couple of YouTube videos.  AT&amp;T has been very successful at keeping a few apps that it considers &quot;harmful to their network&quot; out of the iTunes App Store.  I would think if YouTube were so expensive for them, we wouldn&#039;t be seeing an app dedicated solely to it pre-installed on the iPhone</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;At this rate, a carrier would be killed when a typical user streams a mere two videos a day.&#8221;</p>
<p>I call BS.  If this were the case, then why on Earth would AT&#038;T allow the iPhone YouTube app to be included as one of the pre-installed apps?  One of the first things I did with my new iPhone is watch a couple of YouTube videos.  AT&#038;T has been very successful at keeping a few apps that it considers &#8220;harmful to their network&#8221; out of the iTunes App Store.  I would think if YouTube were so expensive for them, we wouldn&#39;t be seeing an app dedicated solely to it pre-installed on the iPhone</p>
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		<title>By: asd</title>
		<link>http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-857641</link>
		<dc:creator>asd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 23:33:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://venturebeat.com/?p=108437#comment-857641</guid>
		<description>&quot;Google is already losing hundreds of millions on the Web handling YouTube&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What? Is your assertion that Google serves video? No, they do not. You&#039;re fired!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Google is already losing hundreds of millions on the Web handling YouTube&#8221;</p>
<p>What? Is your assertion that Google serves video? No, they do not. You&#39;re fired!</p>
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		<title>By: Flat_Soda</title>
		<link>http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-857640</link>
		<dc:creator>Flat_Soda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://venturebeat.com/?p=108437#comment-857640</guid>
		<description>Matt and Tim-&lt;br&gt;While I understand the concept of a strong balance and the cash resources available to T and VZ, while you make a good point of that, I believe your analysis is flawed:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;1) meerly glossed over the economics of 4G and Clearwire. I would conversely argue, that it is in Sprint&#039;s best interest to drive data tonage. And, the economics of 1X to EVDO clearly delivered cost savings and a new breed of data products. I can cite 56K modems to cable modems also delivering similiar benefits.&lt;br&gt;2) predisposed going into the analysis that Sprint and T-Mo are, for lack of better words, &quot;up a creek&quot;. And it&#039;s this kind of journalism that creates fear and uncertainty in my customer&#039;s minds. Perhaps, we revert to a duopoly and everyone can enjoy higher prices and slower innovation...yeah...that would be great. &lt;br&gt;3) is there a point where wireless networks will look like the landline business? perhaps, but I don&#039;t see it happening anytime soon as new networks and players continue to emerge (Boost, Leap, tracfone) and deliver value to their customers while making lots of money...customers like choice...Like, I would love to have ala carte choices in my cable bill, but alas, I can&#039;t thanks to regulation and a defacto duopoly. Hulu is changing that (recognize the innovation)&lt;br&gt;4) 3-5min for $1 is wayyy wayy off...everyone would have been out of business a long time ago. try pennies. HD Streaming on a handset...maybe, but not until HD capable screens reach critical penetration in the handset circles...years and years away. P.S. how is FLO doing? not well, the last I checked their SEC filings. Why...cause people like youtube/ondemand and rarely dig broadcast content (except for the superbowl).&lt;br&gt;5) &quot;T-Mobile and Sprint subsidy model challenged&quot;...it&#039;s indemic in the industry...Wonder why T took a hit in earnings recently? I would argue that more industry participants constrain subsidies...Meaning, if iphone was available to more carriers, the price would drop and subsidies would drop as many analysts had covered last week. &lt;br&gt;6) wholesale is a vibrant business for all and everyone offers different pieces of the values ... Sprint has been the most aggressive here. Other carriers have followed...VZ with Tracfone&#039;s staighttalk is a serious competitive threat to AT&amp;T...Wirelessly attached devices represents a significant growth area - last i checked, these OEMs like carrier choice. It&#039;s a good business to be in.&lt;br&gt;7) and what the hell does driving them into the ground mean? Zip? Done? Nada? niche focused? regional? or wholesale focused? or? &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The thing that is affecting T-Mo is a weakened parent company and T-MO usa with the failing to recognize the need to build a data network (through increased spectrum depth). Sprint&#039;s issues are street cred and merger debt. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It pains me when techies mix half baked economics into an analysis that is predisposed against a carriers...ohh the headaches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt and Tim-<br />While I understand the concept of a strong balance and the cash resources available to T and VZ, while you make a good point of that, I believe your analysis is flawed:</p>
<p>1) meerly glossed over the economics of 4G and Clearwire. I would conversely argue, that it is in Sprint&#39;s best interest to drive data tonage. And, the economics of 1X to EVDO clearly delivered cost savings and a new breed of data products. I can cite 56K modems to cable modems also delivering similiar benefits.<br />2) predisposed going into the analysis that Sprint and T-Mo are, for lack of better words, &#8220;up a creek&#8221;. And it&#39;s this kind of journalism that creates fear and uncertainty in my customer&#39;s minds. Perhaps, we revert to a duopoly and everyone can enjoy higher prices and slower innovation&#8230;yeah&#8230;that would be great. <br />3) is there a point where wireless networks will look like the landline business? perhaps, but I don&#39;t see it happening anytime soon as new networks and players continue to emerge (Boost, Leap, tracfone) and deliver value to their customers while making lots of money&#8230;customers like choice&#8230;Like, I would love to have ala carte choices in my cable bill, but alas, I can&#39;t thanks to regulation and a defacto duopoly. Hulu is changing that (recognize the innovation)<br />4) 3-5min for $1 is wayyy wayy off&#8230;everyone would have been out of business a long time ago. try pennies. HD Streaming on a handset&#8230;maybe, but not until HD capable screens reach critical penetration in the handset circles&#8230;years and years away. P.S. how is FLO doing? not well, the last I checked their SEC filings. Why&#8230;cause people like youtube/ondemand and rarely dig broadcast content (except for the superbowl).<br />5) &#8220;T-Mobile and Sprint subsidy model challenged&#8221;&#8230;it&#39;s indemic in the industry&#8230;Wonder why T took a hit in earnings recently? I would argue that more industry participants constrain subsidies&#8230;Meaning, if iphone was available to more carriers, the price would drop and subsidies would drop as many analysts had covered last week. <br />6) wholesale is a vibrant business for all and everyone offers different pieces of the values &#8230; Sprint has been the most aggressive here. Other carriers have followed&#8230;VZ with Tracfone&#39;s staighttalk is a serious competitive threat to AT&#038;T&#8230;Wirelessly attached devices represents a significant growth area &#8211; last i checked, these OEMs like carrier choice. It&#39;s a good business to be in.<br />7) and what the hell does driving them into the ground mean? Zip? Done? Nada? niche focused? regional? or wholesale focused? or? </p>
<p>The thing that is affecting T-Mo is a weakened parent company and T-MO usa with the failing to recognize the need to build a data network (through increased spectrum depth). Sprint&#39;s issues are street cred and merger debt. </p>
<p>It pains me when techies mix half baked economics into an analysis that is predisposed against a carriers&#8230;ohh the headaches.</p>
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		<title>By: Cs</title>
		<link>http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-857639</link>
		<dc:creator>Cs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://venturebeat.com/?p=108437#comment-857639</guid>
		<description>Since it wasn&#039;t mentioned in the narrow scope of this article, how do the insane profit margins from ever-so-popular text messaging play into supporting wireless data networks?  I mean, after all, for every person who has enough time to watch a 3 minute YouTube video on their phone, you probaby have 10,000 people sending a quick text message (and 10,000 receiving a text, lest we forget the unique text messaging model of send &amp; receive &quot;double&quot; billing).  If voice and even mobile email weren&#039;t such a distance 2nd or 3rd to texting, you might have had a valid point going here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since it wasn&#39;t mentioned in the narrow scope of this article, how do the insane profit margins from ever-so-popular text messaging play into supporting wireless data networks?  I mean, after all, for every person who has enough time to watch a 3 minute YouTube video on their phone, you probaby have 10,000 people sending a quick text message (and 10,000 receiving a text, lest we forget the unique text messaging model of send &#038; receive &#8220;double&#8221; billing).  If voice and even mobile email weren&#39;t such a distance 2nd or 3rd to texting, you might have had a valid point going here.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Marshall</title>
		<link>http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-857631</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Marshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:44:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://venturebeat.com/?p=108437#comment-857631</guid>
		<description>These are some great comments, and we&#039;re tracking them. We&#039;re certainly going to update.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These are some great comments, and we&#39;re tracking them. We&#39;re certainly going to update.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Cuthrell</title>
		<link>http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-857638</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Cuthrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://venturebeat.com/?p=108437#comment-857638</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to see the authors of this article approach the topic again without the implied assumption of cost basis having a direct correlation to pricing for Internet traffic. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Hint: pricing is born of what the market will bear &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Indeed, you&#039;ll find that if you explore the notion that Internet traffic (inter-carrier traffic) vs. intra-carrier traffic and the eventual model of inter-handset traffic and task/offering specific radios then the pre-hand wringing here over a data plan charge is slightly myopic.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Lastly, please consider that the majority of uses for handsets might be on the private backhaul reseller picocell market and/or MVNO market, femtocell per carrier market, or the increasingly common use of WiFi due to the inabilty of the 3G network to anticipate growth and demand (see: AT&amp;T).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;d like to see the authors of this article approach the topic again without the implied assumption of cost basis having a direct correlation to pricing for Internet traffic. </p>
<p>Hint: pricing is born of what the market will bear </p>
<p>Indeed, you&#39;ll find that if you explore the notion that Internet traffic (inter-carrier traffic) vs. intra-carrier traffic and the eventual model of inter-handset traffic and task/offering specific radios then the pre-hand wringing here over a data plan charge is slightly myopic.</p>
<p>Lastly, please consider that the majority of uses for handsets might be on the private backhaul reseller picocell market and/or MVNO market, femtocell per carrier market, or the increasingly common use of WiFi due to the inabilty of the 3G network to anticipate growth and demand (see: AT&#038;T).</p>
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		<title>By: Vijay Chattha</title>
		<link>http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-857637</link>
		<dc:creator>Vijay Chattha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://venturebeat.com/?p=108437#comment-857637</guid>
		<description>Great article Tim and Matt!&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The future in my opinion is also new technologies that leverage server-side rendering and heavy lifting. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Browsers like Skyfire are reducing network bandwidth by 70% using this method. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Why can&#039;t we expect this to continue with other services?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article Tim and Matt!</p>
<p>The future in my opinion is also new technologies that leverage server-side rendering and heavy lifting. </p>
<p>Browsers like Skyfire are reducing network bandwidth by 70% using this method. </p>
<p>Why can&#39;t we expect this to continue with other services?</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Devitt</title>
		<link>http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-857636</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Devitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 08:34:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://venturebeat.com/?p=108437#comment-857636</guid>
		<description>To add to some of the other comments: network neutrality does NOT mean all-you-can-eat pricing. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It means you can&#039;t charge me different amounts for different bits at the same time, or block certain bits altogether.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Jason</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To add to some of the other comments: network neutrality does NOT mean all-you-can-eat pricing. </p>
<p>It means you can&#39;t charge me different amounts for different bits at the same time, or block certain bits altogether.  </p>
<p>Jason</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Malley</title>
		<link>http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-857635</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Malley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:25:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://venturebeat.com/?p=108437#comment-857635</guid>
		<description>I think this article is flawed. First of all it makes the over simplifying assumption that AT&amp;T and Verizon are already winners and Sprint and T-Mobile are losers based on number of subscribers. I think, AT&amp;T is primarily surviving on its Iphone wins, if not I bet you a lot of folks would switch. Sprint meanwhile has quietly improved its network a lot and it is continuing to do so. Also with Palm Pre Sprint has a chance to really stem the tide and turn back to solid profitability. Also Sprint with their 4G WiMAX service will clearly take even more stronger part of the high paying enterprise customers, making AT&amp;T and VZ blue in the face. Now T-Mobile&#039;s 3G story is so week, they better go with WiMAX. Otherwise they will clearly lose. But Sprint also with their Level 3 potential alliance will be a solid player. Not to mention the strong Intel relationship which AT&amp;T and VZ do not have by going LTE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this article is flawed. First of all it makes the over simplifying assumption that AT&#038;T and Verizon are already winners and Sprint and T-Mobile are losers based on number of subscribers. I think, AT&#038;T is primarily surviving on its Iphone wins, if not I bet you a lot of folks would switch. Sprint meanwhile has quietly improved its network a lot and it is continuing to do so. Also with Palm Pre Sprint has a chance to really stem the tide and turn back to solid profitability. Also Sprint with their 4G WiMAX service will clearly take even more stronger part of the high paying enterprise customers, making AT&#038;T and VZ blue in the face. Now T-Mobile&#39;s 3G story is so week, they better go with WiMAX. Otherwise they will clearly lose. But Sprint also with their Level 3 potential alliance will be a solid player. Not to mention the strong Intel relationship which AT&#038;T and VZ do not have by going LTE.</p>
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		<title>By: mojonixon</title>
		<link>http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-857634</link>
		<dc:creator>mojonixon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://venturebeat.com/?p=108437#comment-857634</guid>
		<description>You clearly don&#039;t understand what &quot;net neutrality&quot; means. It has nothing to do with bandwidth caps. ISPs can implement bandwidth caps all they want and still support net neutrality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You clearly don&#39;t understand what &#8220;net neutrality&#8221; means. It has nothing to do with bandwidth caps. ISPs can implement bandwidth caps all they want and still support net neutrality.</p>
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		<title>By: Q dub</title>
		<link>http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-857633</link>
		<dc:creator>Q dub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:15:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://venturebeat.com/?p=108437#comment-857633</guid>
		<description>I think the metered broadband vs metered utility is a very relevant analogy, however does not reflect the biggest reason why carriers want to fight net neutrality.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Bandwidth can be managed with caps, but neutrality means the end of price discrimination: the ability to charge different prices per unit of traffic based on different usage.  That is the underlying driver of insane SMS margins and paltry data margins if you compare them dollars for bit.  There is no analogy to the utility world: it&#039;d be like paying a higher price for drinking water and a lower one for shower water out of the same pipe; just because drinking water delivers more value per liter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the metered broadband vs metered utility is a very relevant analogy, however does not reflect the biggest reason why carriers want to fight net neutrality.</p>
<p>Bandwidth can be managed with caps, but neutrality means the end of price discrimination: the ability to charge different prices per unit of traffic based on different usage.  That is the underlying driver of insane SMS margins and paltry data margins if you compare them dollars for bit.  There is no analogy to the utility world: it&#39;d be like paying a higher price for drinking water and a lower one for shower water out of the same pipe; just because drinking water delivers more value per liter.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff H</title>
		<link>http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/10/how-verizon-and-att-may-use-wireless-neutrality-to-drive-sprint-and-t-mobile-into-the-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-857632</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:36:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://venturebeat.com/?p=108437#comment-857632</guid>
		<description>You lost me when you compared wireless network bandwidth with electricity and gas.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;They are very different things.  Wireless saturation has to do with how well the technology is implemented, and how frequently the stations are available, and overall spectrum available.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;All of these things have a lot of tuning that can be done to get more and more and more bandwidth.  Gas is a finite resource we pump out of the earth.  Electricity can be like network bandwidth when we use ocean hydro or wind, but we mostly use coal.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;They can up the network bandwidth A LOT, without the expenses associated with upping the gas pumping.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Dont make excuses for our carriers to be lazy and greedy for them.  We should be considering a wireless monopoly at the HW level only, and making it a sales free for all on top of that with service.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;All of these providers are screwing up the future telecommunications position of our country by their short sighted and lazy ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You lost me when you compared wireless network bandwidth with electricity and gas.</p>
<p>They are very different things.  Wireless saturation has to do with how well the technology is implemented, and how frequently the stations are available, and overall spectrum available.</p>
<p>All of these things have a lot of tuning that can be done to get more and more and more bandwidth.  Gas is a finite resource we pump out of the earth.  Electricity can be like network bandwidth when we use ocean hydro or wind, but we mostly use coal.</p>
<p>They can up the network bandwidth A LOT, without the expenses associated with upping the gas pumping.</p>
<p>Dont make excuses for our carriers to be lazy and greedy for them.  We should be considering a wireless monopoly at the HW level only, and making it a sales free for all on top of that with service.  </p>
<p>All of these providers are screwing up the future telecommunications position of our country by their short sighted and lazy ways.</p>
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