Editor’s note: We previously ran a transcript of Rami Ismail’s talk at GamesBeat Summit 2016. Now here’s the video. 

Vlambeer has only two people, but the Dutch indie game maker has managed to draw outsized attention to itself during its six years of making games.

Part of the reason is that Utrecht, Netherlands-based company has made one hit after another in the “bullet hell” genre of moment-to-moment action. It has produced hits like Ridiculous Fishing, Luftrausers, and Nuclear Throne.

But it has also drawn a lot of attention because of Rami Ismail, its outspoken cofounder and a thought leader for the game industry. Ismail has traveled the world as one of the big voices of the indie game industry, speaking at a wide range of conferences and speaking out on issues such as diversity, Muslim representation in games, Gamergate, and uncompensated “crunch time” in games.

He’s drawn a lot of Internet hate for his views, but he has been a voice of reason in some very intense discussions. I spoke to Ismail in a fireside chat at our GamesBeat Summit 2016 event last week. Our conversation covered topics like underdogs, what indies want from platform owners, seizing opportunities quickly, standing up to Internet bullies, and traveling the world to inspire indies.

“Anybody that’s outspoken in talking about diversity, talking about making the industry a better place is going to be a target there at some point, because they just want things to stay as they are,” he said. “And they won’t…. No, I don’t think so. For a lot of creators — anybody I see here is passionate about the games industry at large. Anybody here wants the games industry to be the best place it can be, to have the largest audience it can have, to have the biggest impact on the world it can have. Part of that is sometimes you have to speak up.”

Here’s the video of our interview.